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Opinion on Elevator Solution

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  • Opinion on Elevator Solution

    Based on the wording of the Elevator mission: "if the Elevator's moving parts are Independent, and supported only by its hinges" [score 15 points for blue car down and 20 points for balanced], my team has come up with a solution that would have equipment touching the base (stationary part of the model) but not touching the moving part at the end of the match. Since the wording of Independent is applied only to the moving parts, it should score. Would you agree?

    Thanks in advance for your opinions.
    2014 World Class Learning (coach Stealth Bots #3233)
    2015 Trash Trek (coach Electric Trashbeards #8039)
    2016 Animal Allies (coach Plank Robit Rovers #8039)
    2017 Hydrodynamics (coach Rogue Robotics #30453)
    2018 Into Orbit (coach Rogue Robotics #30453)
    2019 City Shaper (coach Rogue Robotics #30453)
    2020 Replay (coach Rogue Robotics #30453)

  • #2
    Impossible to say one way or the other without seeing it in person.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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    • #3
      I was trying to avoid showing the solution as to not spoil other teams journey to finding their own solution but after I re-read my post, I can see that pictures are really needed to make sure my question is clearly understood. Attached are pictures from different angles of their equipment to make it easier to understand.

      As you can see the equipment is touching (or could be touching) the base of the model but is not touching any of the moving portion of the model. So, based on the way the mission defined independent as only the moving parts need to be independent and it is still supported only by its hinges, the team believe that it should still score.
      You do not have permission to view this gallery.
      This gallery has 4 photos.
      2014 World Class Learning (coach Stealth Bots #3233)
      2015 Trash Trek (coach Electric Trashbeards #8039)
      2016 Animal Allies (coach Plank Robit Rovers #8039)
      2017 Hydrodynamics (coach Rogue Robotics #30453)
      2018 Into Orbit (coach Rogue Robotics #30453)
      2019 City Shaper (coach Rogue Robotics #30453)
      2020 Replay (coach Rogue Robotics #30453)

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      • #4
        You probably don't need a jig to make the blue car at the bottom.
        The tricky bit is getting the model to balance.
        If that horizontal black axle touches the movable part of the model, it won't score, because that won't be "Independent".
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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        • #5
          FWIW, my teams successfully balanced the elevator at the competition a couple of times, and at least once it spontaneously "unbalanced", unfortunately in the direction of not scoring at all. This may have been due to a table bump, etc. The elevator at the competition seemed a little harder to keep balanced than at home. They are considering no longer attempting to balance, since there's a risk that referee activity, etc. could unbalance the elevator.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by rjbell4 View Post
            FWIW, my teams successfully balanced the elevator at the competition a couple of times, and at least once it spontaneously "unbalanced", unfortunately in the direction of not scoring at all. This may have been due to a table bump, etc. The elevator at the competition seemed a little harder to keep balanced than at home. They are considering no longer attempting to balance, since there's a risk that referee activity, etc. could unbalance the elevator.
            At the coaches meeting before the start of the tournament a week ago the head ref said that the refs were instructed to give benefit of the doubt on this. In other words, if the team balanced the elevator, and it was visibly balanced for several seconds, but at some point before the end of the match the table got bumped and the elevator went down, they would still get the points for a balanced elevator. Obviously, tournaments will vary in their rulings on this.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by nedcook View Post

              At the coaches meeting before the start of the tournament a week ago the head ref said that the refs were instructed to give benefit of the doubt on this. In other words, if the team balanced the elevator, and it was visibly balanced for several seconds, but at some point before the end of the match the table got bumped and the elevator went down, they would still get the points for a balanced elevator. Obviously, tournaments will vary in their rulings on this.
              I'm not sure I agree with this.

              Elite teams potentially will come up with solutions that lessen the risk of the elevator becoming unbalanced. For example, do the elevator mission towards the end of the run so there is less time for the elevator to tip over. The extra effort that these teams put in should be rewarded. By giving other teams the benefit of the doubt you are justifying mediocrity rather than celebrating excellence.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by FLLVetran View Post

                I'm not sure I agree with this.

                Elite teams potentially will come up with solutions that lessen the risk of the elevator becoming unbalanced. For example, do the elevator mission towards the end of the run so there is less time for the elevator to tip over. The extra effort that these teams put in should be rewarded. By giving other teams the benefit of the doubt you are justifying mediocrity rather than celebrating excellence.
                Just reporting what the head ref said. It didn't affect our team because our goal for scoring that mission was blue car down and our reliability was close to 100%.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by nedcook View Post

                  Just reporting what the head ref said. It didn't affect our team because our goal for scoring that mission was blue car down and our reliability was close to 100%.
                  If my post came across as an attack on you personally, I'm sorry. I didn't mean it to come out that way.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FLLVetran View Post

                    I'm not sure I agree with this.

                    Elite teams potentially will come up with solutions that lessen the risk of the elevator becoming unbalanced. For example, do the elevator mission towards the end of the run so there is less time for the elevator to tip over. The extra effort that these teams put in should be rewarded. By giving other teams the benefit of the doubt you are justifying mediocrity rather than celebrating excellence.
                    Getting a mission to work at all is success, not mediocrity. Having a team that is excited about STEM because they got their elevator to balance at all is excellence. Coaches and judges and referees who focus on teams have a positive STEM experience are elite. Guess elite teams (whatever that is) will have to be satisfied with a job well done.
                    Last edited by Dean Hystad; 11-18-2019, 01:02 PM.

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                    • #11
                      There is precedence in FLL for missions that are trickier than you might expect. In Nano Quest there were little blue dirt molecule bits that could could get stuck in the netting on their way down to the dirt trap. This happened rarely. But if it did happen, you weren't given the benefit of the doubt. "Elite" teams built mechanisms that covered the netting so that the dirt pieces couldn't get stuck.

                      https://youtu.be/-6nVNUT0CBA?t=107

                      Does this year's elevator fall into that category? Maybe, maybe not.


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