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Mission 4 design for wildlife

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  • Mission 4 design for wildlife

    One of my groups are doing mission 4. They asked about he way the bat has to be. In the engineering notebook it shows the bat hanging upside down, can they change it so that the bat is in the center of the loop. The two pictures show the difference in what they are talking about. In other words, can the orientation of the bat be changed from the hanging upside down position. The second photo is how they want it.
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  • #2
    (No. Teams cannot modify the mission models. See Rule 25.)

    Ignore this reply. Please see update below.
    Last edited by Tom Mosher; 11-05-2019, 02:20 PM. Reason: Correct my incorrect assumption about the construction of the Bat model.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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    • #3
      I'm going to voice a different opinion but, reserving the right to change my mind and admit I'm completely wrong.

      It's my opinion that a team can change the orientation of the bat the same as changing the mini-figure legs last season. The rule says that teams cannot take mission models apart unless the mission asks them to take them apart. First, the bat is a mission model and not equipment because it's already on the field when the team arrives. I don't think anyone would disagree on that.

      Taking something apart requires that a team separate some Lego piece from another piece.

      Changing the bat can be done without taking the mission model apart. The bat can be twisted on the base and the base can be twisted on the loop. Last season, at least in my region, the teams were permitted to move/rotate the arms and legs of the Lego figures in the Crew Cargo.

      I think a team can present a very clear argument that changing the bat does not require taking the mission model apart and is therefore permitted because the rule only prohibits taking a mission model apart.
      FLL coach Trash Trek on, State 5x, World 3x, ref, judge advisor.

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      • #4
        Thanks DJR for pointing that out. I am now slightly confused. I am not familiar with the details of how that model is constructed.

        If the model can be re-configured without disassembling it (such as by rotating a loop), then it would probably be allowed. But the team should be prepared that not all referees will see it that way initially, and may need some convincing. Then it perhaps becomes at worst a Benefit of the Doubt situation.
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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        • #5
          I have another question about Mission 4. The mission says "If the Bat is Supported by branch (B) on the Tree". There's a picture showing (B), but what defines where branch (B) ends? The scoring app that the Seshan Brothers put out calls it "brown branch (B)" but I don't see anything in the game guide or updates specifying that only the brown part of the branch counts.

          My team can get the loop over the brown branch, but then it slides all the way down until it's resting on the lower part of the branch (the gray/green part). I'd argue that it's still supported by the branch - it's supported by an area that's branched out from the tree trunk, and nothing in the rules say it has to be supported by the upper/brown part of the branch. And even if a portion of it is resting on the trunk, the mission says "Supported By", not "Completely Supported By".

          Can anyone share there thoughts? The Seshan brothers are awesome... but I'm not seeing where they got the "Brown" from...

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Suzann1701 View Post
            Can anyone share there thoughts? The Seshan brothers are awesome... but I'm not seeing where they got the "Brown" from...
            The picture in the Mission 4 rule shows the brown branch. The picture is part of the mission rule,.

            If the loop is actually resting on the gray and green pieces that are part of the trunk, then it isn't the "supported by branch", and won't score. "Supported" is defined in Ruye 34. "100% of the weight".
            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Suzann1701 View Post
              Can anyone share there thoughts? The Seshan brothers are awesome... but I'm not seeing where they got the "Brown" from...
              We had a long discussion about this. In the end, the students decided that if it slides down to the gray/green it is no longer supported by the brown branch. They determined that it had to be on the brown branch because the rule says If the Bat is Supported by branch (B) on the tree. To them, it saying that it has to be branch B is very specific.

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              • #8
                The picture in the Engineering Notebook has an arrow pointing to the Brown branch. You might be able to argue that the green beam is also a branch but don't count on the referee agreeing. I'd suggest seeing how your team can improve the accuracy of this mission.
                tree-brown-branch.png

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by alanggreen View Post
                  The picture in the Engineering Notebook has an arrow pointing to the Brown branch. You might be able to argue that the green beam is also a branch but don't count on the referee agreeing. I'd suggest seeing how your team can improve the accuracy of this mission.
                  tree-brown-branch.png
                  Alan, I noticed that too, but I told my team that the Game Guide and the updates online are what determines the rule, neither of them have an arrow. Since the game guide and updates are the official rules, I would steer my members away from using the engineering notebook to interpret the rules.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by alanggreen View Post
                    The picture in the Engineering Notebook ...
                    The Engineering Notebook isn't the official rules.
                    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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