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RG09 and RG21 conflict

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  • RG09 and RG21 conflict

    Robot Game update RG21 states:
    Only for jigs which fit and stay completely in the Launch Area >> Align the Robot against the jig, let go of the jig, then Launch, leaving the jig as is, untouched until the next Robot Interruption.
    However, Robot Game update RG09 states:
    Things Stranded partly or completely in the Launch Area *can be taken into Home if you wish. If that action clearly/directly produces a scoring condition, the score won’t count.
    This is reinforced in RG13:
    You can not touch anything in the Launch Area between a Launch and the next Interruption, except to remove a Stranded Object as allowed in RG09.
    Aren't these rules updates in conflict? I fail to see how a jig left in the Launch Area would not meet the definition of a "Stranded Object"/"Thing Stranded", and does not product a scoring condition. Therefore, prior to the example in RG21, I would have expected it to be permissible to place a jig in the Launch Area, launch the robot, and then remove the jig from the Launch Area prior to the next robot interruption, based on RG09.

    Is RG21 clarifying that a jig does not qualify as a Stranded Object? If not, what does?

    FWIW, I do not ask on behalf on my students, who have no plans to use a jig (they currently plan to rely solely on the south wall).

  • #2
    Jigs are not stranded equipment, because they were never Transported Cargo.

    So RG09 doesn't apply to jigs.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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    • #3
      RG09 goes on to say it is an "exception to Rules 22 and 29" where Rule 29 involves cargo and Rule 22 involves "Equipment breaks off the Robot unintentionally"

      I would have to correct Tom Mosher 's take on this:

      Jigs are not stranded equipment, not having anything to do with Transported Cargo, but because it is equipment that is intentionally left behind

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Feral_Goose View Post
        RG09 goes on to say it is an "exception to Rules 22 and 29" where Rule 29 involves cargo and Rule 22 involves "Equipment breaks off the Robot unintentionally"

        I would have to correct Tom Mosher 's take on this:
        You are free to disagree with me all you like. I didn't write the rules, I just try to interpret them, and give advice based on what the referees are likely to rule during a match.
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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        • #5
          Tom Mosher I didn't actually disagree with you. In fact taking a harder look at RG09 and how it's related with Rules 22 & 29, where Rule 29 deal with cargo, but Rule 22 does deal with equipment (which the jig is) but it specifically says "Equipment breaks off the Robot unintentionally" This alone solidifies your original statement of "Jigs are not stranded equipment"

          My mistake may have been using the "quote" function to show how I would have corrected your statement:
          "Jigs are not stranded equipment, not having anything to do with Transported Cargo, but because it is equipment that is intentionally left behind"

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          • #6
            So what are the consequences (or what should they be) if a team uses a jig that fits completely within the Launch Area and between the Launch and the next Robot Interruption, the team touches the jig and (possibly) moves the jig to Home or moves it within the Launch Area? The jig is not the Robot so it doesn't seem appropriate to call touching it an Interruption. Just asking for a friend who will be a Head Referee at an event in a few weeks...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by philso View Post
              So what are the consequences (or what should they be) if a team uses a jig that fits completely within the Launch Area and between the Launch and the next Robot Interruption, the team touches the jig and (possibly) moves the jig to Home or moves it within the Launch Area? The jig is not the Robot so it doesn't seem appropriate to call touching it an Interruption. Just asking for a friend who will be a Head Referee at an event in a few weeks...
              The rules are gloriously free of anything like "consequences". So referees often have to improvise in order to revert disallowed actions.

              If I'm referee in this situation, I'd probably ask the team to put the jig back immediately, since moving it was not allowed.
              FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

              Comment


              • #8
                philso That is an interesting question. But this particular situation is much like so many others that could happen in the "heat-off" the game. Some sort of rule violation, that doesn't directly effect the bot as an interrupt but is still a violation that would be hard to catch until it has already happened. Something like a team going for their 3rd run, 60 seconds into the match, and the launch their bot with an attachment that is extending past the launch line. A judge isn't going to stop the match, in a lot of cases isn't going to be able to catch everything before it happens, it isn't interrupting the bot, but it is a violation of the rule.
                I have wondered how judges handle these situations.
                I'm pretty sure having 3 matches makes this easier to deal with, having correcting the team after the first match. But how are penalty points or the lose of precision points handled in these cases? I am sure it is handle very differently depending on the level of the tournament.
                It would be interesting to know if there is a sound and wise way this is handled.

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                • #9
                  Something like a team going for their 3rd run, 60 seconds into the match, and the launch their bot with an attachment that is extending past the launch line. A judge isn't going to stop the match
                  Referees call the matches. Not judges.

                  I'm a referee. Oh yes, we certainly will require the team to immediately re-launch the robot, after an illegal launch. We watch for illegal launches most carefully.

                  The only time "penalty points" are involved is according to the rules of that challenge. This year, it is a loss of a Precision Token for an Interruption that happens not completely inside Home. There is no other situation where a Penalty Token can be taken.
                  Last edited by Tom Mosher; 10-28-2019, 02:19 PM. Reason: Replaced "stop the match" with the underlined text, for enhanced correctitude. "Stop the match" is incorrect, because the clock never stops.
                  FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Feral_Goose View Post
                    philso Something like a team going for their 3rd run, 60 seconds into the match, and the launch their bot with an attachment that is extending past the launch line. A judge isn't going to stop the match, in a lot of cases isn't going to be able to catch everything before it happens, it isn't interrupting the bot, but it is a violation of the rule.
                    In my experience, a referee will stop the robot or have the team stop the robot as soon as possible after a bad launch. The team must take the robot back to the launch area and perform the launch sequence again. The process will be repeated until the team gets it right. Sure, there are times a referee might miss something, but teams should not count on leniency for improper launches.

                    Note that in the middle of the match, the match itself is not stopped. The clock keeps running, and the team on the other board keeps running their missions.

                    For the first launch sequence at the beginning of the match, the match itself doesn't not start until both referees signal that both bots are in a legal starting position. Occasionally, a "false start" may happen, and the entire match is restarted at the beginning, but that is very rare.
                    Last edited by timdavid; 10-28-2019, 11:59 AM.

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                    • #11
                      If the Launch was good, it seems that about the only consequence of breaking this rule is to be told to "put it back" as Tom Mosher suggested. Stopping the match or taking away the jig are not supported by the rules and do not seem proportionate to the offense.

                      Maybe the Referees can borrow a page from my son's swim coach and have the team do push ups after the match
                      Last edited by philso; 10-28-2019, 02:02 PM.

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