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Rule 26 Storage in Home

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  • dreece1000
    replied
    FWIW, I contacted FLL with specific questions about Rule 26. Scott responded to me. The response is below. Since some referees are prohibiting kids from picking equipment up between launch and interruption, I do wonder if yet another rule update would be helpful. Anyway, here are the questions and responses below:

    Questions and Answers:


    It's not clear to me, and others apparently, what the expectation is of Rule 26.

    My apologies. That confusing over-simplistic “summary” was added by a well-meaning editor, and it came to my attention after things went to print.




    Is the expectation that kids are not allowed to pick up any equipment within the Home area between Launch and Interruption?

    That would be an over-interpretation. Teams can and are expected to treat Home like their or garage, then treat the Launch Area like a starting line at a race track. You can work on and store things as needed - any time - in the garage, but your only business on the starting line is to straighten your goggles, and hit the gas, and only at the designated time.

    Because I knew that “Rule 26” is cloudy at best, I gave a clarification in the first sentence of Update 13. Maybe a fresh peek at that now, in the context of this exchange, will help?

    https://firstinspiresst01.blob.core....ge-updates.pdf


    Does all equipment need to be returned to home before the robot is allowed to be launched?

    No, but that would be best-practice. Sharp referees will know from Rules 22 through 24 that immediately after Launch, the Launch Area is just another non-Home area out in the Field - where you’re not allowed to go touching stuff. So technically, anything left sitting in the Launch Area after the instant of Launch needs to sit there (inaccessible / in the way?) until the next time you’re eligible to touch stuff there, which is after the next Interruption.

    https://firstinspiresst01.blob.core....-guide-pdf.pdf

    Is it forbidden for a kid to pick up an attachment and carry it in preparation for the next launch before the robot is interrupted?

    As long as that action stays west of the west edge of the Mat, that’s fine, expected, and extremely commonplace.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    Originally posted by rising eagle View Post
    Does an object have to touch the table surface or side wall face to be considered in Home? There is no ceiling, but: "HOME – Table surface west of the Field Mat that includes the faces of its Border Walls." Is an object held over this surface in Home? At our QT yesterday, the Referees stated kids could not lift anything off the table surface in home between launch and interrupt. After review of the Home definition and RG13 "you can shift that thing", I think they may have unintentionally created this restriction (or is it intended?)
    My understanding is that HOME is the entire volume above that area on the mat. There is no restriction that objects must remain in contact with the surface.

    Those referees seem to have invented a rule which makes playing the game extremely difficult, to no useful purpose.

    Leave a comment:


  • dna1990
    replied
    Originally posted by rising eagle View Post
    This seems overly restrictive.
    I agree, technicians can manage Home anyway they choose. They can't move objects to some other place, but there is no text saying contact with table is required top be "in home". In fact, other text implies Home is a volume. What ref can truly determine if a tech is moving a stack in preparation for a new action versus an incoming robot.

    All that being said, yes - teams should have a plan and some practice as to what is going on. Home likely seams so large this year that space management is not a big focus. But indeed it is. And refs do look at context. Meaning if you are working hard to maintain order, have a plan - but something goes amiss. Much more likely to receive some leniency, than if everything looks like last minute chaos and reactions.

    Leave a comment:


  • rising eagle
    replied
    They were allowing stacks to be constructed, but they were forbidding lifting and holding them and jigs or attachments off the surface, especially to clear the way as robots were returning to Home. This seems overly restrictive. I can't imagine Scott intended objects to remain in contact with the surface while being stored. We are running another QT 11/23, would be good to know direction.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlrwi
    replied
    Originally posted by rising eagle View Post
    Does an object have to touch the table surface or side wall face to be considered in Home? There is no ceiling, but: "HOME – Table surface west of the Field Mat that includes the faces of its Border Walls." Is an object held over this surface in Home? At our QT yesterday, the Referees stated kids could not lift anything off the table surface in home between launch and interrupt. After review of the Home definition and RG13 "you can shift that thing", I think they may have unintentionally created this restriction (or is it intended?)
    At our regional tournament last weekend teams were allowed to build stacks and otherwise arrange mission models and attachments in home while the robot was running on the field. Given this year's missions in particular, a restriction against lifting items from the surface of home would be pretty severe. Were they forbidding stack-building during the time between launch and interrupt?

    Leave a comment:


  • rising eagle
    replied
    Does an object have to touch the table surface or side wall face to be considered in Home? There is no ceiling, but: "HOME – Table surface west of the Field Mat that includes the faces of its Border Walls." Is an object held over this surface in Home? At our QT yesterday, the Referees stated kids could not lift anything off the table surface in home between launch and interrupt. After review of the Home definition and RG13 "you can shift that thing", I think they may have unintentionally created this restriction (or is it intended?)

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    Update RG22 is simply a reaction to reports from referees from the early tournaments, where a notable percentage of teams are ignoring the "Completely in Home" portion of Rule 27 and are treating the Launch Area as though it was still the Base area from previous seasons.

    Update 22 changes nothing with regard to RG07.

    RG07 only applies to the very tiny time interval between when the robot has been legally Launched but has not yet touched the perimeter of the Launch Area.

    Leave a comment:


  • timdavid
    replied
    Originally posted by sbuzz View Post

    There is an update for mislaunch if the robot is still in the launch area, wouldn't that help with not losing a Precision Token

    RG07 -MIS-LAUNCHIf you Interrupt the Robot so soon after Launch that it hasn’t yet reached a Launch Area perimeter line, you will need to re-Launch, but you will not lose a Precision Token. This is an exception to Rule 27

    We think RG22 is only for when the robot is partly in Launch area (maybe like when robot is returning home but not completely in home yet, or when mis-launched, but robot has already crossed the Launch perimeter)
    You are correct! I forgot about that update.

    Leave a comment:


  • sbuzz
    replied
    Originally posted by timdavid View Post
    New update for today:

    Robot Game Update RG22 - HOME SAFETY
    Be sure you know Rule 27. Interrupting the Robot even partly in the Launch Area can cause you to lose a Precision Token. To avoid losing a Token, Interrupt the Robot completely in Home only. (Experienced teams are not experienced with this year’s Rules. The Launch Area is not the same as “BASE” from past years.)

    This means that if a team launches the robot and then stops it while still in the launch area, they lose a precision token. This is a big change from the old base rules. I've commonly seen teams accidentally select the wrong program for launch, and then quickly realize their mistake before the robot leaves. With the old base rules, the teams were not penalizes in this situation. Now they lose a precision token.
    There is an update for mislaunch if the robot is still in the launch area, wouldn't that help with not losing a Precision Token

    RG07 -MIS-LAUNCHIf you Interrupt the Robot so soon after Launch that it hasn’t yet reached a Launch Area perimeter line, you will need to re-Launch, but you will not lose a Precision Token. This is an exception to Rule 27

    We think RG22 is only for when the robot is partly in Launch area (maybe like when robot is returning home but not completely in home yet, or when mis-launched, but robot has already crossed the Launch perimeter)
    Last edited by sbuzz; 11-15-2019, 04:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    Originally posted by timdavid View Post

    Good old cognitive dissonance has made an appearance. I think we are all struggling trying to hold two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time.

    Yes, you can tap the robot right before it exits the launch area. No, you can't touch a jig during launch.
    The only explanation I can come up with is that Scott's reply is totally incorrect. Otherwise, none of the rules hold any water.

    Leave a comment:


  • timdavid
    replied
    New update for today:

    Robot Game Update RG22 - HOME SAFETY
    Be sure you know Rule 27. Interrupting the Robot even partly in the Launch Area can cause you to lose a Precision Token. To avoid losing a Token, Interrupt the Robot completely in Home only. (Experienced teams are not experienced with this year’s Rules. The Launch Area is not the same as “BASE” from past years.)
    Last edited by timdavid; 11-15-2019, 05:05 PM. Reason: removed incorrect statement

    Leave a comment:


  • Belleview Robotics
    replied
    Originally posted by timdavid View Post

    Good old cognitive dissonance has made an appearance. I think we are all struggling trying to hold two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time.

    Yes, you can tap the robot right before it exits the launch area. No, you can't touch a jig during launch.
    Seeing that you can't touch the jig while launching I am going with the you can't touch the moving robot. Wouldn't make sense the other way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dean Hystad
    replied
    I expect the "you can touch the robot until it leaves the launch area" to have shorter legs than "if you have water in a glass, and the glass sits on a book". That response was clearly not thought out.

    Leave a comment:


  • timdavid
    replied
    Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
    Oh boy.
    Good old cognitive dissonance has made an appearance. I think we are all struggling trying to hold two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time.

    Yes, you can tap the robot right before it exits the launch area. No, you can't touch a jig during launch.

    Leave a comment:


  • WilliamFrantz
    replied
    Originally posted by Belleview Robotics View Post
    I sent a email to first asking about this. I even put it in the context that they were actually tapping it to make sure that it was going straight in case there was any doubt as to why they were actually doing it. The response I received was "That would be ok". I then replied "To make sure I'm understanding, if a team touches the side of the robot as it is leaving the launch area, while it is still entirely in the launch area they will not need to relaunch and they will not lose a token.

    Scott from First replied "Confirmed"
    Originally posted by CCVH View Post
    I did get another quick response to my 2nd email, this time from Scott... he gave me this “set of facts for problem-free jig use:”

    ---The Technician is not allowed to be touching the jig at the moment of Launch.
    Oh boy.
    Last edited by WilliamFrantz; 10-23-2019, 06:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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