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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
    As a referee I'm not going to be too concerned about exactly how the Technicians move objects from Home into the Launch Area after the robot has been Interrupted. I think this is supported by Rule 23 (paraphrased) "Don't cause anything to move out of Home except to Launch".
    That's a good point regarding Rule 23 and a great way to apply the rules we're discussing on this thread. I hope our referees see it the same way.

    FLL Coach 2014 -

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    • #32
      I did get another quick response to my 2nd email, this time from Scott, who stated that it will be addressed in an update soon, and he gave me this “set of facts for problem-free jig use:”

      ---A jig should *only be in the Launch Area during Launch preparation, which occurs during two windows:
      +Between Inspection and the first Launch, and
      +Between any Interruption and the next Launch.
      *Exception noted below.

      ---The Technician is not allowed to be touching the jig at the moment of Launch.

      ---So the best practice is to align via the jig, pull the jig back into Home, then press Go.

      ---*If you really wanted, and only if the jig is completely in the Launch Area, you could instead align using the jig, let go of the jig, then press Go. But in this case, the jig would need to sit there in the Launch Area until you next Interrupt the Robot.

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      • #33
        That update has just been posted.

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        • #34
          On a related topic, I emailed FLL to clarify rules around using the Launch area to setup the robot (remove/add attachments) between launches. Below is the relevant part of their response.

          "...You can use your hands for things completely in Home for the entirety of the match. You can also use your hands when staging your robot for launch in the Launch Area. This could mean changing attachments, etc.

          If you launch the robot and any part of it has crossed the Launch Area arc, then it is hands off until the next time you interrupt it. ..."

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Belleview Robotics View Post
            I sent a email to first asking about this. I even put it in the context that they were actually tapping it to make sure that it was going straight in case there was any doubt as to why they were actually doing it. The response I received was "That would be ok". I then replied "To make sure I'm understanding, if a team touches the side of the robot as it is leaving the launch area, while it is still entirely in the launch area they will not need to relaunch and they will not lose a token.

            Scott from First replied "Confirmed"
            Originally posted by CCVH View Post
            I did get another quick response to my 2nd email, this time from Scott... he gave me this “set of facts for problem-free jig use:”

            ---The Technician is not allowed to be touching the jig at the moment of Launch.
            Oh boy.
            Last edited by WilliamFrantz; 10-23-2019, 06:34 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
              Oh boy.
              Good old cognitive dissonance has made an appearance. I think we are all struggling trying to hold two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time.

              Yes, you can tap the robot right before it exits the launch area. No, you can't touch a jig during launch.

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              • #37
                I expect the "you can touch the robot until it leaves the launch area" to have shorter legs than "if you have water in a glass, and the glass sits on a book". That response was clearly not thought out.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by timdavid View Post

                  Good old cognitive dissonance has made an appearance. I think we are all struggling trying to hold two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time.

                  Yes, you can tap the robot right before it exits the launch area. No, you can't touch a jig during launch.
                  Seeing that you can't touch the jig while launching I am going with the you can't touch the moving robot. Wouldn't make sense the other way.

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                  • #39
                    New update for today:

                    Robot Game Update RG22 - HOME SAFETY
                    Be sure you know Rule 27. Interrupting the Robot even partly in the Launch Area can cause you to lose a Precision Token. To avoid losing a Token, Interrupt the Robot completely in Home only. (Experienced teams are not experienced with this year’s Rules. The Launch Area is not the same as “BASE” from past years.)
                    Last edited by timdavid; 11-15-2019, 05:05 PM. Reason: removed incorrect statement

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by timdavid View Post

                      Good old cognitive dissonance has made an appearance. I think we are all struggling trying to hold two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time.

                      Yes, you can tap the robot right before it exits the launch area. No, you can't touch a jig during launch.
                      The only explanation I can come up with is that Scott's reply is totally incorrect. Otherwise, none of the rules hold any water.
                      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by timdavid View Post
                        New update for today:

                        Robot Game Update RG22 - HOME SAFETY
                        Be sure you know Rule 27. Interrupting the Robot even partly in the Launch Area can cause you to lose a Precision Token. To avoid losing a Token, Interrupt the Robot completely in Home only. (Experienced teams are not experienced with this year’s Rules. The Launch Area is not the same as “BASE” from past years.)

                        This means that if a team launches the robot and then stops it while still in the launch area, they lose a precision token. This is a big change from the old base rules. I've commonly seen teams accidentally select the wrong program for launch, and then quickly realize their mistake before the robot leaves. With the old base rules, the teams were not penalizes in this situation. Now they lose a precision token.
                        There is an update for mislaunch if the robot is still in the launch area, wouldn't that help with not losing a Precision Token

                        RG07 -MIS-LAUNCHIf you Interrupt the Robot so soon after Launch that it hasn’t yet reached a Launch Area perimeter line, you will need to re-Launch, but you will not lose a Precision Token. This is an exception to Rule 27

                        We think RG22 is only for when the robot is partly in Launch area (maybe like when robot is returning home but not completely in home yet, or when mis-launched, but robot has already crossed the Launch perimeter)
                        Last edited by sbuzz; 11-15-2019, 04:54 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by sbuzz View Post

                          There is an update for mislaunch if the robot is still in the launch area, wouldn't that help with not losing a Precision Token

                          RG07 -MIS-LAUNCHIf you Interrupt the Robot so soon after Launch that it hasn’t yet reached a Launch Area perimeter line, you will need to re-Launch, but you will not lose a Precision Token. This is an exception to Rule 27

                          We think RG22 is only for when the robot is partly in Launch area (maybe like when robot is returning home but not completely in home yet, or when mis-launched, but robot has already crossed the Launch perimeter)
                          You are correct! I forgot about that update.

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                          • #43
                            Update RG22 is simply a reaction to reports from referees from the early tournaments, where a notable percentage of teams are ignoring the "Completely in Home" portion of Rule 27 and are treating the Launch Area as though it was still the Base area from previous seasons.

                            Update 22 changes nothing with regard to RG07.

                            RG07 only applies to the very tiny time interval between when the robot has been legally Launched but has not yet touched the perimeter of the Launch Area.
                            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                            • #44
                              Does an object have to touch the table surface or side wall face to be considered in Home? There is no ceiling, but: "HOME – Table surface west of the Field Mat that includes the faces of its Border Walls." Is an object held over this surface in Home? At our QT yesterday, the Referees stated kids could not lift anything off the table surface in home between launch and interrupt. After review of the Home definition and RG13 "you can shift that thing", I think they may have unintentionally created this restriction (or is it intended?)

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by rising eagle View Post
                                Does an object have to touch the table surface or side wall face to be considered in Home? There is no ceiling, but: "HOME – Table surface west of the Field Mat that includes the faces of its Border Walls." Is an object held over this surface in Home? At our QT yesterday, the Referees stated kids could not lift anything off the table surface in home between launch and interrupt. After review of the Home definition and RG13 "you can shift that thing", I think they may have unintentionally created this restriction (or is it intended?)
                                At our regional tournament last weekend teams were allowed to build stacks and otherwise arrange mission models and attachments in home while the robot was running on the field. Given this year's missions in particular, a restriction against lifting items from the surface of home would be pretty severe. Were they forbidding stack-building during the time between launch and interrupt?

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