Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rule 26 Storage in Home

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I am trying to find the email to write to ask for clarification on this, but cannot find it anywhere. Can anyone tell me where to locate it?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post

      ... the application of RG13 which does seem to imply that the removal of any equipment from home at any point between launch and interruption is prohibited.
      I don't think RG13 is an implication. It seems to be a hard and clear fact.
      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post

        I don't think RG13 is an implication. It seems to be a hard and clear fact.
        So if technicians hold equipment in their hands, they must hover that equipment over the Home area between the time the robot is launched and interrupted. I assume this also means that all equipment not in use for that launch must be back in Home before the robot can be re-launched as well.

        It will be interesting to see if veteran teams will fully understand and apply these new restrictions and if the referees will actually enforce them to the letter of the law.

        FLL Coach 2014 -

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post

          So if technicians hold equipment in their hands, they must hover that equipment over the Home area between the time the robot is launched and interrupted. I assume this also means that all equipment not in use for that launch must be back in Home before the robot can be re-launched as well.

          It will be interesting to see if veteran teams will fully understand and apply these new restrictions and if the referees will actually enforce them to the letter of the law.
          Our region (Minnesota) is just starting mandatory training for referees and judges this month. I'm a judge and my wife is a referee. It will be interesting to learn how these rules will be enforced. Everyone has been warned that there are major rule changes this season.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post
            So if technicians hold equipment in their hands, they must hover that equipment over the Home area between the time the robot is launched and interrupted.
            Personally, I feel that's an extreme interpretation of the rule which doesn't add value to anyone's experience. It will be interesting to see how the referee training materials handle this.


            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by CCVH View Post
              I am trying to find the email to write to ask for clarification on this, but cannot find it anywhere. Can anyone tell me where to locate it?
              [email protected]

              Comment


              • #22
                YMMV, but I see all of this to indeed limit all LEGO pieces to the table and in plain view of the ref. But agree that as long as it is the two technicians handling components "in and around" Home/Launch, any further badgering of teams to keep components "exactly" in Home/Launch is wasted energy. For my eyes, just get it all the active pieces to fit completely into Launch before launch, the dynamic and fluid motion of getting to that point - I am not too worried about. But also, don't expect to leave a part out on the field just outside of Home for more than a few moments before I interrupt your work and ask you to scoop in back into Home.

                I also would have no issue with a technician with something in their hand, but then having to walk "down table" and watch or rescue a robot. No normal ref is going to make a technician place the item down in Home before walking/reaching out to grab a bot, etc.

                Disallowing team members to "tag in" and bring parts with them is no impact to less experienced teams. They likely will have not known any different. And Home is generously large to accommodate the atypical amount of LEGO a less-experienced team would bring. And this way it stays all nice where they sat it down. Nothing gets dropped, nothing gets "adjusted" while the student nervously plays with it while waiting their turn, etc.

                It likely DOES make an impact on experienced teams which bring a metric ton of LEGO to the table and have either elaborate or chaotic methods to deploy it all. Those teams will have to be more creative in both Inspection time and general space management of Home during the match.

                Not allowing LEGO to depart the table, also is a great benefit to refs and tournament folks. Scoring items that might need to be checked at the end of the match (not as relevant this season), and mission models that "walk away" from the table - are expected to be much easier to manage now.


                Feel free to email FLL, but honestly the reply won't apply much. This is going to come down to individual refs and the head ref that hopefully trained them. If you have strong feelings on this or other rules, get engaged now. Find your regional contacts and even the specific tournament contacts for where you may compete. Discuss it now. No time to discuss in the 150 seconds of a match.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Thanks for your great insights, David.

                  Aren't you supposed to be "on vacation"?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    There are certainly some benefits in keeping all equipment and models within the home area from a game management perspective. I'm reserving judgement on the other aspects of these changes until I see them in action at a tournament.

                    Regarding our concern about the strict interpretation of RG13: It seems risky to just assume that referees won't enforce the rule that strictly. I'd prefer to see clarification on this in a game update.

                    However, dna1990 's recommendation to contact the regional organizers about this issue (and any others) well before the tournament date is a great idea and one that I'm going to follow through with. In the time I've been involved with FLL in our region, I don't believe we've had a pre-tournament head-referee/teams meeting before to discuss rules and procedures. Perhaps it's time we had one.
                    Last edited by dreece1000; 10-17-2019, 01:48 AM.

                    FLL Coach 2014 -

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I did get a response from [email protected], they responded very quickly but I don't think they really answered the question. Basically a paragraph about in an effort to be fair to all teams, the mat being shorter created Home, and that we can use all of Home for storage, and off-field storage would no longer be allowed. But my question was about defining "storage" and whether holding equipment by hand is allowable. I wrote back to ask for clarification of this, and also asked the questions about clarifying the use of jigs in the launch area, and when it may be picked up and moved to home. We'll see if I can get a clear response.

                      Years ago, I think it was in the Nature's Fury season, I wrote to ask a question and had a long conversation via email with Scott which was very interesting and enjoyable. The questions I have sent in recent years generally did not get a response, until a game update addressed them. I was pleased that I got a response so quickly this time.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by philso View Post
                        Thanks for your great insights, David.

                        Aren't you supposed to be "on vacation"?
                        The tongue only can withstand so many holes. But yes, I am online only.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The recording from the Minnesota Coach Training webinar is available at https://hightechkids.org/fll-overvie...-f65ffe0e-3c45

                          Robot game information starts about minute 45, with extensive discussion of home and the launch area. The main points applicable to this discussion:

                          Teams who tag members in and out are NOT allowed to have the team members hold attachments away from the table. Attachments must remain in HOME.

                          Team members at the table cannot hold attachments off to the side away from home during the match.


                          Note that this is from the Minnesota regional partner. Your partner may have a different interpretation. I did not hear if team members could briefly hold attachments off the table while moving it from home to the launch area. It was emphasized that the height restriction in Home only applied during the inspection. After that, teams are free to stack things as high as they want. And teams are free to shift things around in home at any time during the match.
                          Last edited by timdavid; 10-18-2019, 12:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by timdavid View Post
                            Team members at the table cannot hold attachments off to the side away from home during the match.
                            <snip>
                            I did not hear if team members could briefly hold attachments off the table while moving it from home to the launch area.
                            Personal observation only:

                            I'm hoping to see a reasonable implementation of this, where the Technicans:
                            • Can hold objects in their hands outside of Home by some small distance while they are immediately preparing for the next Launch.
                            • Can not hold objects outside of the table boundary for long periods of time, because that would be storage outside of Home.
                            As a referee I'm not going to be too concerned about exactly how the Technicians move objects from Home into the Launch Area after the robot has been Interrupted. I think this is supported by Rule 23 (paraphrased) "Don't cause anything to move out of Home except to Launch".

                            What I am going to be looking for is equipment that is being "stored" outside of Home after the robot has been Launched. That would be a potential strategic advantage, and clearly breaks Rule 26.
                            Last edited by Tom Mosher; 10-18-2019, 01:33 PM.
                            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by timdavid View Post
                              I did not hear if team members could briefly hold attachments off the table while moving it from home to the launch area. It was emphasized that the height restriction in Home only applied during the inspection.
                              I would think it as a safety hazard if this is not allowed. Given the short arms of the kids, and some needs to hold an attachment hovering on the table while running around the corner of the table. I would not want to see that happen to any kid.
                              I understand team should manage their way better to avoid this action from beginning, but hey, they are kids.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CCVH View Post
                                ...questions about clarifying the use of jigs in the launch area, and when it may be picked up and moved to home.
                                I think this is directly addressed in RG13 and RG09. "You can not touch anything in the Launch Area between a Launch and the next Interruption, except to remove a Stranded Object as allowed in RG09."

                                This raises the question, is a jig a Stranded Object according to RG09? "Things Stranded partly or completely in the Launch Area can be taken into Home if you wish. If that action clearly/directly produces a scoring condition, the score won’t count."

                                So it's a little fuzzy. There's no penalty for removing a jig from LA between Launch and Interruption if and only if the removal of the jig doesn't produce a scoring condition.

                                Does anybody believe a jig can't ever be considered a "stranded object" unless the robot actually transported it at least a little? Does anyone assert that a jig is "equipment" but not a "stranded object".

                                Curiously, "Stranded Cargo" is defined in the rules and the word "cargo" would imply the robot was moving it somewhere. However, "Stranded Object" is not defined in the rules and the phrase "stranded object" might imply anything the robot drives away from whether it was cargo or not.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X