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  • Rule 26 Storage in Home

    "Rule 26. Do store all your Equipment and anything the Robot brings to Home in Home." Would you interpret that to mean that during the match they HAVE to keep all their attachments in the home area? My kids all want a turn at the mat, and they like to have their attachment in hand while waiting for their mission, ready to plop on the robot when they walk up. They haven't in the past used any kind of other storage off the table or on, and they wouldn't have planned to do that this year. I think the question is, what is "storage"? If they are holding in preparation for an upcoming mission, is that storage? Do they have to lay it down on the table? Or is storage just things that have been used, are not going to be used, or going to be used at a later time?

  • #2
    I've been wondering that same thing. The strict interpretation of the rule would seem to mean that, this season, kids must not hold equipment in their hands away from the table while the robot is launched, or if they do hold equipement, that they must do so within the boundaries of home including the imaginary 12" ceiling. If that interpretation is correct, then that is a big change from previous seasons and will certainly impact the process the kids use to set up for launches and swap out operators. It's also not clear to me what happens if they violate that rule, but I assume it's a loss of a precision token.

    Mentor, Head Ref

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    • #3
      Would you interpret that to mean that during the match they HAVE to keep all their attachments in the home area?
      Yes.

      I expect that teams will not be allowed to hold equipment when they are not the two Technicans at the table.
      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post
        I assume it's a loss of a precision token.
        I don't expect that to be the case. There are few official penalties for breaking a robot game rule, other than the Referee asking the team to not do whatever it is that isn't allowed.
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post

          Yes.

          I expect that teams will not be allowed to hold equipment when they are not the two Technicans at the table.
          I do agree with that. But for clarification, is it your expectation that the two technicians at the table are allowed to hold equipment in a way that does not require them to keep that equipment within the home boundary and 12" ceiling?

          Mentor, Head Ref

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post

            I do agree with that. But for clarification, is it your expectation that the two technicians at the table are allowed to hold equipment in a way that does not require them to keep that equipment within the home boundary and 12" ceiling?
            No, that's not my expectation. Home has no ceiling during a match. There is a 12-inch height limit on the Inspection areas, but the Inspection areas are only used before the match.
            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post

              Home has no ceiling during a match.
              That's good. But if a technician wanted to pick up equipment and carry it over to the launch area holding it in hand (clearly out of the home area) in preparation for the next launch, but while the robot is currently launched, it seems like that is not allowed this season. But that also seems overly strict so I just wonder if that is really the intent.

              Mentor, Head Ref

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post

                That's good. But if a technician wanted to pick up equipment and carry it over to the launch area holding it in hand (clearly out of the home area) in preparation for the next launch, but while the robot is currently launched, it seems like that is not allowed this season. But that also seems overly strict so I just wonder if that is really the intent.
                I agree, that is an overly strict interpretation of the rule. The rule writer's intent is always difficult to determine.
                FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                • #9
                  It is unlikely that FIRST would include rules that deliberately make the game too complicated to play while adding no real value to the experience.
                  FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post
                    if a technician wanted to pick up equipment and carry it over to the launch area holding it in hand (clearly out of the home area) in preparation for the next launch, but while the robot is currently launched, it seems like that is not allowed this season. But that also seems overly strict so I just wonder if that is really the intent.
                    RG13 in the update states, "If the Robot is on the way Home and you think its entry will be blocked by something in Home, you can shift that thing out of the way, as long as it was and remains completely in Home the whole time"

                    Would anyone like to square RG13 with dreece1000 's question? Don't we have to assume that a robot is "on the way Home" immediately following each Launch? It seems like teams ought to be able to take items completely out of home and place them in the Launch Area for the next launch, but no rule specifically allows that. At the same time, RG13 specifically disallows taking items even partially out of home if you are moving it because you think it might block a returning robot.

                    I gotta say, RG13 makes it sound like no item can be moved out of home as long as the robot is on the mat. It's unclear if items could be completely removed from Home while the robot is in Home but no rule allows for that, right? I think we have to take the overly strict interpretation, don't we?

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                    • #11
                      In our preseason meeting with the Ohio head referee, he indicated that kids will not be allowed to hold their attachments away from the board while waiting for their turn as a technician. I'm not sure I see the value in that rule during the course of the match because it makes it harder for younger teams who are less experienced...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tim Carey View Post
                        In our preseason meeting with the Ohio head referee, he indicated that kids will not be allowed to hold their attachments away from the board while waiting for their turn as a technician. I'm not sure I see the value in that rule during the course of the match because it makes it harder for younger teams who are less experienced...
                        I would think it makes it harder for experienced teams that are used to doing things a certain way. This is an experiment. We will see if it works or if we never see "home" used in FLL ever again.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dean Hystad View Post

                          I would think it makes it harder for experienced teams that are used to doing things a certain way. This is an experiment. We will see if it works or if we never see "home" used in FLL ever again.
                          I remember a "parking lot" in the Power Puzzle season. Base was along the middle of the south side that season, instead of its usual southwest corner. The parking lot concept was very confusing to me as a rookie coach, and I was very happy never to see it again.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
                            It is unlikely that FIRST would include rules that deliberately make the game too complicated to play while adding no real value to the experience.
                            What I realize is that my concern is less about an overly strict interpretation of rule 26 and, as WilliamFrantz pointed out, more about the application of RG13 which does seem to imply that the removal of any equipment from home at any point between launch and interruption is prohibited. The combination of rules 22, 26, and RG13 is what seems to be too restrictive.

                            Mentor, Head Ref

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post

                              What I realize is that my concern is less about an overly strict interpretation of rule 26 and, as WilliamFrantz pointed out, more about the application of RG13 which does seem to imply that the removal of any equipment from home at any point between launch and interruption is prohibited. The combination of rules 22, 26, and RG13 is what seems to be too restrictive.
                              If I am not mistaken, this would also mean that teams using equipment such as alignment jigs will have to leave such jigs in the Launch area until the Robot returns to Home and is Interrupted.

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