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  • C3SD
    replied
    Thank you Tom. I see it the same way you described. I appreciate your clear responses.

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  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    In your opinion, would having Equipment touching the blue beams at the end of the match be cause for disallowing the scoring of blue beams that have been properly knocked out?
    "Equipment touching the blue beams" is not discussed in the rules. So you're at the whim of however your referees interpret the "Supported" rule. That's always a risky game strategy. The ref might agree with you, or the team may have to present some convincing reasoning and hope for a Benefit of the Doubt ruling.

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  • C3SD
    replied
    Thank you Tom. And, I'm sure you knew this was coming...

    In your opinion, would having Equipment touching the blue beams at the end of the match be cause for disallowing the scoring of blue beams that have been properly knocked out?

    In a nutshell, my team is testing an attachment (aka Equipment) that knocks out three blue beams; but once it knocks out the beams, the attachment is "locked" in place. The robot would leave the attachment on the table, touching most of the blue beams; and the robot would return to home. In this scenario, the Test Building would be Independent - it would not be touching any Equipment (i.e. the attachment) at the end of the match.

    If I follow your explanation for the Safety Factor Mission Model, then I think our Equipment "junk" left touching blue beams is okay (meaning, we would score). However, I have nightmares of RG11 haunting me.
    Last edited by C3SD; 11-23-2019, 05:32 AM.

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  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    Originally posted by C3SD View Post
    What is the definition of Test Building? Is the Test Building comprised of the white blocks attached to the tan plates AND the supporting structure which includes the blue beams? Or is the Test Building ONLY the white blocks attached to the tan plates?

    The definition of Test Building determines whether or not we will have Equipment touching the blue beams at the end of the match.
    The Mission Model for "Safety Factor" has two parts:
    • The Test Building is the white blocks attached to the tan plates.
    • The base is the part with the blue beams that attaches to the mat.

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  • C3SD
    replied
    What is the definition of Test Building? Is the Test Building comprised of the white blocks attached to the tan plates AND the supporting structure which includes the blue beams? Or is the Test Building ONLY the white blocks attached to the tan plates?

    The definition of Test Building determines whether or not we will have Equipment touching the blue beams at the end of the match.

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  • scherrsj
    replied
    Originally posted by SkipMorrow View Post
    Thanks, Steve. And do you think the photo in post #20 above scores 60 points?
    Yes, it looks like it would score 60.

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  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    Originally posted by SkipMorrow View Post
    Indeed, I am suggesting that once the free end of the beam has been removed from the socket under the building, it is 100% knocked out. You do not have to move the beam very far at all to completely disengage it from the socket. Therefore, 50% knocked out means something like the beam is still half-engaged with the socket, but half out of the socket.
    :FYI: Instructions to the the regional head referees say that interpretation is not correct. See Steve's comment from yesterday regarding rotation of the beam by at least 45 degrees.

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  • philso
    replied
    Thanks, Tom and Skip. I only get to see and touch the field models for about an hour a week.

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  • SkipMorrow
    replied
    Indeed, I am suggesting that once the free end of the beam has been removed from the socket under the building, it is 100% knocked out. You do not have to move the beam very far at all to completely disengage it from the socket. Therefore, 50% knocked out means something like the beam is still half-engaged with the socket, but half out of the socket.

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  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    Originally posted by philso View Post
    The interpretation of knocking out as meaning the blue beam is required to be knocked out of the hinge pin does make sense to me. That would constitute field damage and all teams that are successful in knocking out beams would get no points for doing so.
    I think what the "knock out" promoters are referring to is the "socket" that the free end of the blue beam fits into, under the bottom of the test building part of the model.

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  • philso
    replied
    The interpretation of knocking out as meaning the blue beam is required to be knocked out of the hinge pin does make sense to me. That would constitute field damage and none of the teams that are successful in knocking out beams would get any points for having done so.
    Last edited by philso; 10-19-2019, 01:46 AM.

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  • SkipMorrow
    replied
    Thanks, Steve. And do you think the photo in post #20 above scores 60 points?

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  • scherrsj
    replied
    As Tom noted, the information being distributed to referees tells them to count the number of blue beams knocked out of their starting positions by 45 degrees. If your team plans for that, then they should have a compelling argument that those beams should score.

    As Skip noted earlier, knocking a beam off the model "halfway" is problematic. Knocking a beam "halfway out of contact/support" of the Test Building is also hard to define and view. The intent of the Game Designer was to have teams move beams a lot (45 degrees). If you like, you can think of this demonstrating a significant test of changing the amount of support for the Test Building.

    Steve Scherr
    Virginia-DC FLL Referee Advisor
    World Festival Head Referee

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  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
    Is there a difference between "out" and "down"? Is SkipMorrow correct to say that "knocked out" means "knocked out of their sockets"?
    In the unofficial referee training discussions, "knocked out" always refers to rotation of the blue beam from its pre-set position by at least 45 degrees.

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  • dna1990
    replied
    out, down - how can that possibly matter, in this context? You are reading way too hard.

    "at least halfway" is a much more telling element. But all the way down, sure passes at least halfway out in my read. Just as all the way out, or more than halfway down.


    Yes, if you want to debate "down" in context with the whole concept of supported "only" by the blue beams, then yes - "all the way down" could be meaningful. But I am standing by general senses and the lack of RG11 anymore, to mean teams can't "add" any item that would help support the blue beams. But the pins/hinges/model/mat the beams already start with - are irrelevant to the supporting clause.

    Yes, if we had missions that had an "observable condition", something the ref has to see "in action", then maybe out or down would have meaning. No such requirement on this mission, or actually any mission this season, thank goodness.


    Dean is right, FLL is hard enough. Don't make it harder.

    I know this sounds snarky, and not really meant to be - but put down the dictionary and pickup some LEGO. Work the challenges, not the text. Celebrate the creativity of solving a problem, not redefining it.

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