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  • #16
    Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post

    Now that RG11 is gone, I guess we go back to the original text of M09.



    It simply says "Each Beam" but we take that to mean "each beam which has been knocked out at least half way". If that's the case then the problem with a building supported by non-vertical beams is that only "knocked out" beams score points. If the robot laid all beams sideways and then set the building atop two of the beams as they lay horizontal, then yes, the building is supported by beams but those beams are not "knocked out" anymore. It seems like no beams which support the building can score point regardless of whether they are vertical or horizontal since by definition(?), support beams can't be "knocked out" beams.

    The beams might have been knocked out at one point during the match, but the scoring condition is what's visible at the end of the match. If the text had said "knocked over" instead of "knocked out" then I think one could make the case that a "knocked over" beam could still support something. However, the word, "out" seems pretty clear that the beam must be out from under the building.

    Does anybody think that a beam can simultaneously be supporting the building and also be "knocked out"?
    I would agree William on this. If the beam is supporting the building in anyway than it can't be considered "knocked out". It can be considered to be in a different location, but it is still supporting the building.

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    • #17
      I think I see what you are saying here, and I am inclined to also agree with this. You are suggesting that BY (COMMON) DEFINITION, if is isn't knocked out, then it must be still supporting the building. And conversely, if it is knocked out, then it cannot be supporting the building. Which brings me back to my last comment. What does it mean to be half-way knocked out? If fully knocked out means (as defined above) it isn't supporting, then that would mean just pushing the beam a little way until it disengages from the building. And then half-way knocked out means still supporting the building, but moved so that it is half-way disengaged.

      The ultimate implication being that there will be at least one blue beam supporting the building and it will not be "knocked out", so a max of five beams can score.
      Norfolk, Virginia, USA
      FLL Coach and Regional Tournament Head judge since 2014

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      • #18
        [QUOTE=SkipMorrow;n89974
        The ultimate implication being that there will be at least one blue beam supporting the building and it will not be "knocked out", so a max of five beams can score.[/QUOTE]

        The score sheet provided by FLL has, for mission 9, a Yes/No section for if the building is supported only by the blue beams and then how many beams are knocked out with a total possible number of six. This means to me that this mission scores even if the building is being supported by knocked out beams. Why would the referees be given the option to score six on this mission if that is not a possible score?

        FLL Coach 2014 -

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        • #19
          I guess I don't understand the confusion over this rule.

          The end condition needs to have the building only touching the blue beams. If the building is touching any other equipment, model, or the mat, then it does not score. The rule does not specify that the building only be supported by non-knocked-out beams. Deriving a meaning of "support" beyond this seems unnecessary. This perspective is supported by the apparent fact that a team can score 60 points on this mission.

          There is also a picture provided which, I assume, demonstrates what it means for a beam to be knocked out at least half-way.

          I think RG11 was intended to clarify the use of other equipment that might be added to provide support to the blue beams -- and it didn't clarify. At this point, it seems to me that adding equipment that helps support the beams themselves, but which itself does not touch the building, is allowed.

          But, perhaps I'm overlooking something.

          FLL Coach 2014 -

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          • #20
            I have been interpreting "knocked out" to mean "knocked out from supporting the building" but I think SkipMorrow is on to something. One could justifiably claim it means "knocked out of the socket" in which case, the knocked out beam could easily be providing support. However as Skip says, it does raise the question of what "half way" means. Is it "half way to the mat" or "half way out of the socket"?

            The fact that the score sheet allows for 60 points is telling, but the teams are only supposed to use the rules and updates, right? The score sheet isn't authoritative.

            Nonetheless, I think I'm back to believing the following picture is justifiably worth 60 points. Anybody disagree?

            M09 60 points.jpg

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            • #21
              I definitely think it is worth 60 points, but I sure would like to hear what the refs think. My team is also very interested because that is how they want to do it, but as of now are not willing to take the risk.
              Norfolk, Virginia, USA
              FLL Coach and Regional Tournament Head judge since 2014

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              • #22
                Even before, but especially with the retraction of RG11, I don't put any meaning to what might support the blue beams, only what the blue beams support. In other words, the fact that that in the photo example above, some/all beams might be resting or supported by the mat or the base model - is not relevant (at least to me).

                Is the building element only supported by blue beams? Yes. It is not touching/relying upon: a robot, team equipment, the mat, other mission models, etc.
                How many blue beams are knocked down >= 45 degrees? 6.

                YHRMTO. (your headref may think otherwise)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by dreece1000 View Post
                  Why would the referees be given the option to score six on this mission if that is not a possible score?
                  Without regard to this specific topic, but errors in the scoresheets are not unusual.
                  Last edited by Tom Mosher; 10-18-2019, 01:39 PM.
                  FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dna1990 View Post

                    Is the building element only supported by blue beams? Yes. It is not touching/relying upon: a robot, team equipment, the mat, other mission models, etc.
                    How many blue beams are knocked down >= 45 degrees? 6.

                    YHRMTO. (your headref may think otherwise)
                    I agree with your assessment.


                    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
                      How many blue beams are knocked down >= 45 degrees? 6.
                      I agree. There are 6 "knocked down". How many are "knocked out"? The rules only score points for "out" not "down". Is there a difference between "out" and "down"? Is SkipMorrow correct to say that "knocked out" means "knocked out of their sockets"?

                      Personally, I say there's a lack of strong text, take a liberal interpretation of "out", apply R16 "benefit of the doubt" and award points for all 6.
                      Last edited by WilliamFrantz; 10-18-2019, 04:08 PM.

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                      • #26
                        out, down - how can that possibly matter, in this context? You are reading way too hard.

                        "at least halfway" is a much more telling element. But all the way down, sure passes at least halfway out in my read. Just as all the way out, or more than halfway down.


                        Yes, if you want to debate "down" in context with the whole concept of supported "only" by the blue beams, then yes - "all the way down" could be meaningful. But I am standing by general senses and the lack of RG11 anymore, to mean teams can't "add" any item that would help support the blue beams. But the pins/hinges/model/mat the beams already start with - are irrelevant to the supporting clause.

                        Yes, if we had missions that had an "observable condition", something the ref has to see "in action", then maybe out or down would have meaning. No such requirement on this mission, or actually any mission this season, thank goodness.


                        Dean is right, FLL is hard enough. Don't make it harder.

                        I know this sounds snarky, and not really meant to be - but put down the dictionary and pickup some LEGO. Work the challenges, not the text. Celebrate the creativity of solving a problem, not redefining it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                          Is there a difference between "out" and "down"? Is SkipMorrow correct to say that "knocked out" means "knocked out of their sockets"?
                          In the unofficial referee training discussions, "knocked out" always refers to rotation of the blue beam from its pre-set position by at least 45 degrees.

                          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            As Tom noted, the information being distributed to referees tells them to count the number of blue beams knocked out of their starting positions by 45 degrees. If your team plans for that, then they should have a compelling argument that those beams should score.

                            As Skip noted earlier, knocking a beam off the model "halfway" is problematic. Knocking a beam "halfway out of contact/support" of the Test Building is also hard to define and view. The intent of the Game Designer was to have teams move beams a lot (45 degrees). If you like, you can think of this demonstrating a significant test of changing the amount of support for the Test Building.

                            Steve Scherr
                            Virginia-DC FLL Referee Advisor
                            World Festival Head Referee
                            Steve Scherr
                            Referee and Judge, Virginia-DC, Maryland, and Ohio
                            FLL Global Head Referee

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                            • #29
                              Thanks, Steve. And do you think the photo in post #20 above scores 60 points?
                              Norfolk, Virginia, USA
                              FLL Coach and Regional Tournament Head judge since 2014

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                              • #30
                                The interpretation of knocking out as meaning the blue beam is required to be knocked out of the hinge pin does make sense to me. That would constitute field damage and none of the teams that are successful in knocking out beams would get any points for having done so.
                                Last edited by philso; 10-19-2019, 01:46 AM.

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