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So I'm a new FLL coach and we managed to qualify for the state tournament. Just out of curiosity I've tried to figure out what happens after the state competition. I can't seem to get a clear understanding of that. Is there a National Open Competition every year that state champions can apply for?
Well, there's the FLL World Festival (April 27-30, 2016 in St. Louis, MO): http://www.firstlegoleague.org/event/worldfestival . I believe that you have to be INVITED to attend it, though. Click on the hyperlinks on that webpage to find out more.
Every year some number of "regions" - country, part of country, state, something else - are preselected to have their Champion's award winner invited to the World Festival. The lady is built in (apparently) some semi-random manner such that said regions don't wait too long between invitations. I say "apparently" because I don't know that for sure, but that's what it appears like. If FIRST has ever published the algorithm I've not seen it, although I've not looked that hard. It's a detail that doesn't matter.
The 2016 invite list is available on the page dluders mentioned, btw.
Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]
Congratulations on your team's qualification for a state tournament. As @dulders referenced in his link, the 1st place champions award winning from each of the regions listed will be invited to the world festival. There are several other post world festival competitions held throughout the world called "Open Invitational Championship" Some of the remaining top placing teams from your region may be invited. Contact your regional partner for information.
Tim Tedrow Addicted to FIRST since 2000.
No known treatment or cure. EnTech281
While the above is highly correct, ask your local Partner affiliate directly. Each region may have subtle differences in the exact invitation selection process (and timing).
I am curious what is going to happen next year. FIRST is dividing their FRC "World's" event into two location (Huston and St Louis). I am assuming that they also going to split up FLL and if they do, does it mean that they get to invite more teams (states) to the "worlds"?
I suspect we will learn a lot more detail and changes in the next few months. I really hope that they base number of teams qualifying for the World Festival on the number of team that exist in that particular district (or state).
In 2018 they will move St. Louis event to Detroit, kind of sad for St Louis, as that area seems pretty depressed. But I suppose Detroit can use a little boost as well. At least travel to Detroit will be easier, as it is a bigger hub for the airlines.
Legolympians - 2009-2015 (retired - joined FRC team 5422 Stormgears)
Legolicious - 5th year girls team
Brick Force - 2nd year boys team
Curious is the correct word. Most of FIRST doesn't seem to know much of the details yet either - but I think that will start to change quickly now that WF2016 has wrapped.
Yes, they do plan to have 108-ish FLL teams at each city, essentially doubling the number of teams able to participate (same true for the whole Championship structure). Supposedly so that every region will have a annual invite, and no more lottery or rotation system. (of course that only lasts until even more states break into even more regions and additional countries become active).
Bigger questions surround how to maintain volunteer levels and how teams will be "assigned" to either city. Also to decide what items and materials are not easily (affordably) duplicated - and must be part of Houston teardown and trucked overnight to St. Louis.
Right, that is why I used a more general "district" term, which could be a state, but not necessary. However when their selection system EXLUDES states with 500 teams, but INCLUDES countries with 30 teams, there is something wrong with this system...
Ether way you slice it, the odds of making it to the FLL Worlds are incredibly slim! This year, it was 108 from 29000 teams (.37%), if next year they increase it to 216 teams we will be up to a whopping .74%, that is still pretty slim compared to 20% of FRC teams that are making it to the Worlds this year (and possibly 40% making it the next year!).
I am not sure now to include more top teams (short of what they will do the next year), but perhaps they could increase the standards from areas with smaller pool of teams. There were quite a few teams under 400 or even under 300 points. Those teams wouldn't even be considered for champion's award at most large tournaments in US!
I get the entire "inclusion thing", but... at the same time, they are excluding some excellent teams from areas with higher level of competition! There should be some middle ground Lets see how the next year works out, it is a step in the right direction!
Legolympians - 2009-2015 (retired - joined FRC team 5422 Stormgears)
Legolicious - 5th year girls team
Brick Force - 2nd year boys team
I am not sure now to include more top teams (short of what they will do the next year), but perhaps they could increase the standards from areas with smaller pool of teams. There were quite a few teams under 400 or even under 300 points. Those teams wouldn't even be considered for champion's award at most large tournaments in US!
Does a high robot score automatically mean that a team is "a top team"? Surely the project should factor in there too. In the US, isn't the robot score just meant to be a threshold to help figure out which teams are well rounded from the pool of those with really good projects and who act appropriately?
Of course it isn’t! But FLL always had a “split personality”, where they had to establish balance between the robot game and project/core values! So right now, they use the “40% rule”. At Mass State championship (best 84 out of almost 500 teams), that point was around 24th place (~434 points), leaving out 60 teams from consideration. Judging by the scores at World Festival, there are areas with much lower 40% figure.
Legolympians - 2009-2015 (retired - joined FRC team 5422 Stormgears)
Legolicious - 5th year girls team
Brick Force - 2nd year boys team
Of course it isn’t! But FLL always had a “split personality”, where they had to establish balance between the robot game and project/core values! So right now, they use the “40% rule”. At Mass State championship (best 84 out of almost 500 teams), that point was around 24th place (~434 points), leaving out 60 teams from consideration. Judging by the scores at World Festival, there are areas with much lower 40% figure.
Hmmm - maybe I don't really understand the 40% rule. For a tournament with 84 teams, I would have thought the '40%' rule would be around 33rd place.
From my viewpoint, FIRST continues to downplay the robot "score" in all areas - except right inside the robot competition area. The judge side gets a lot more weight. They will also continue to emphasize the word "Festival" and concepts like "showcase". While under the same roof and FIRST umbrella - there is a world of differences between FRC/FLL (if we can still use those initials, all FIRST staff now say the full name of the rebranded lines). Not that FRC/FLL need be the same implementations, but they should have more common basis for education, inclusion, growth, and competition.
And I didn't believe it for a long time, but I can see where some say even Dean himself doesn't look very far past FRC. That is his baby, and the other programs are just tools towards it.
But yes - every year we are curious to watch where FIRST, LEGO, and others wish to steer this ship.
I think Tim is correct that the cutoff would have been 33rd place in robot score.
The top 40% at World would have been about 580 points, I think. One of my teams could have been above that, but there's a reasonable chance that they would have started over with a new robot design had they made it to World and might not have gotten back up to that score. I'd guess there were a bunch of teams that made some "moonshot" attempts at robot awesomeness that resulted in lower scores than they got at their home tournament.
Confusingly, tournaments may have two cutoffs in place, one for Champions Award, and one for advancement. The advancement scale changes depending on the percentage of teams that advance. Since MN went to a regional/sectional/state tournament structure, the cutoff was 48% at regionals based on the fact that 25% of teams advanced. However, the Champions Award cutoff is always top 40%. The policy is here: http://www.firstlegoleague.org/sites...ent-policy.pdf There is some pretty strong language about the regional partners adhering to this policy.
I think I'm OK with the split personality for the Champions Award, but I'm not sure it is necessary to have a hard cutoff. A team with awesome robot design judging better have a robot that scores points since the judging includes things like strategy and ability to accomplish tasks. The judge training states that the robot judging results should be validated against the robot scores for teams being considered for awards. Good robot design scores should lead to good robot game scores, but good game scores do not necessarily mean good robot design.
Have any of you judges seen a case where a team was bumped from consideration for Champions Award due to the 40% threshold?
And I didn't believe it for a long time, but I can see where some say even Dean himself doesn't look very far past FRC. That is his baby, and the other programs are just tools towards it.
I too get the same impression that Kamen doesn't think much about FTC or FLL even though given the purpose of these programs FLL is very important, FTC less so, and FRC is a complete waste of time and money. Just goes to show you can be really smart and really stupid at the same time.
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Lets see how the next year works out, it is a step in the right direction!
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